CROSSED: Did Jesus actually exist?

A Local Pastor and a Local Atheist Debate

March 11, 2016

Rev. Dr. William C. Myers Senior Pastor at Presbyterian Church of Traverse City

Now I lay me down to sleep. I pray the Lord my soul to keep. If I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take.

Almost fifty years ago, my grandmother taught me this prayer. Recently I mentioned it in a sermon. Most knew the prayer. How could this be? They didn’t know my grandmother; she didn’t know them. They must have learned the prayer somewhere else, perhaps their grandmothers. But their grandmothers didn’t know my grandmother, so how did we all learn this prayer?

Oral tradition. This prayer has been passed down from grandmothers to grandchildren for generations. But where did it begin? Many attribute an extended version of the prayer to Henry Johnstone, others an earlier author. Whatever the original source, oral tradition has provided a relatively reliable and effective method for passing this prayer down through the generations.

In last month’s column, Gary tried to argue that "Jesus doesn’t exist because no one knew him personally." He discounts the apostles Peter and Paul, other New Testament writers, and ancient, reliable, non-Christian sources because they wrote after Jesus died. So what does that say about other historical figures? If there is no one living who knows them, did they not exist?

Given the time that has passed, we have a remarkably reliable witness, thanks in large part to oral tradition. Those who knew Jesus shared their stories and experiences. Some were spoken, some were written. Some were edited.

Some were embellished. Some were remembered, some were lost. What we do with this witness is a matter of faith, but saying Jesus didn’t live won’t make it so.

GARY’S RESPONSE

Oral tradition is a wonderful way to pass down stories, fables, and anecdotes from the past. However, it does not pass muster when subjected to scrutiny that determines legitimacy because oral tradition evolves.

We are certain Cleopatra, for example, actually lived. There are multiple verifiable written documents from eyewitnesses that corroborate each other. When it comes to Jesus, there are zero of those. None. It’s time we seriously questioned the sources of the teachings that so many around the world continue to propagate as reasons for their behavior, which are often beneficial and other times detrimental.

I approve of any oral tradition that can teach and stimulate people to behave responsibly toward themselves and each other. But I abhor the fact that we teach kids that the bible is factual. Bill agrees that the biblical rendition of creation is inaccurate. That is because it is impossible, based upon credible research and discovery. What I don’t understand is why the religious easily dismiss some aspects of biblical representation, but blindly accept other parts without question.

Gary Singer Gary helps businesses with their Internet marketing. He was raised a Catholic.

Like many other Americans, I was raised into a religious belief system – Catholicism. While I always doubted the reliability of stories such as creation of the universe in seven days, Noah’s Ark, and walking on water, I at least accepted as "gospel" truth the notion that a man known as Jesus of Nazareth existed and acquired a following. However, if your thinking is guided by verifiable evidence and credible discovery by qualified researchers, you will learn that his existence may be as fictitious as the rest of the Bible.

Space limitations here do not allow me to elaborate. I invite anyone interested in learning more to do a search for "Dr. Richard Carrier did Jesus even exist" to view some fascinating videos on his extensive research. He is just one of many, most of whom are former believers in Jesus, who have taken the time to truly look into these stories. The bottom line is that there is absolutely no credible evidence to support the notion that someone named Jesus Christ ever lived. All we really have are a series of tales and secondhand accounts written decades after the supposed crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into the clouds.

All of this will seem unbelievable and impossible to faithful believers. That is completely understandable. After all, most of the world’s population are certain that they will pass on to some sort of afterlife, a belief that provides comfort and motivation. Disruption of that belief will not happen easily. But happen it will, as awareness of the lack of reliable evidence mounts.

When we discuss "The Greatest Story Ever Told," in my opinion, the operative word is "story."

BILL’S RESPONSE

Gary, we get it. You don’t believe in Jesus and an atheist scholar supports your belief. Hmmm. Search "Christ Myth Theory" and you’ll find many more: Charles François Dupuis, Constantin-François Volney, Richard Carlile, Bruno Bauer, Edwin Johnson, Dutch Radical School, Albert Kalthoff, W. B. Smith, J. M. Robertson, Thomas Whittaker, Arthur Drews, Paul-Louis Couchoud, and Alvin Boyd Kuhn.

Since the Enlightenment, good and reliable, Christian and non-Christian, scholars have explored the question: "Did Jesus exist?" Search "Quest for the Historical Jesus" and you’ll find an excellent survey of the discussion from Schweitzer to Käsemann to Bultmann to Crossan, Borg and Wright. The vast majority of scholars believe there was a Jesus. The rest is a matter of faith. Glad you’ve joined the quest!