Where is the Evidence for the Existence of God?

Crossed: An Atheist and Pastor Debate

Feb. 11, 2017

Gary’s Statement
Every non-theistic person who has ever engaged in conversation with someone trying to convince her/him that their god is the one, true god – and all others are invented – has likely demanded proof for the existence of that god. The responses typically range from, “I just know it’s true in my heart” to “you can’t prove there is no God” to “how can you look at that sunset and tell me there is no God?” They never provide any evidence whatsoever. That’s because there is none.

So what about the accusation that we non-theists can’t prove there is no god? Nope, we can’t. Any more than we can prove there are no faeries in our gardens or unicorns roaming the Alps. Logic dictates that it is impossible to prove a negative. The burden of proof is always upon those who stipulate for an occurrence. Imagine the same situation in a court of law. The prosecutor who states that, “I have no evidence, but your client is guilty because my witness just knows it” would be disbarred on the spot.

Often the Bible is promoted as evidence for the existence of the Christian god. Most believers have no idea that the vast majority of the New Testament was written decades after the supposed life of Jesus (for whose existence there is not a shred of credible proof) and was completely re-written by Emperor Constantine in the 4th century. Not much in the way of evidence there. As far as the Old Testament goes, only the most hardened fundamentalists interpret those tales as factual. They are amazing stories, but the operative word is “stories.”

Elite researchers along the lines of Sam Harris, Richard Carrier, and Richard Dawkins have spent their lives looking for the tiniest shred of palpable evidence to support the concepts of life after death and the existence of a god. All efforts have come up empty-handed.

Evidence however, means little to those living in fear of eternal damnation.

Bill’s Statement
“Copernicus, what are you thinking? The earth is the center of the universe!” Now, I don’t know if the church hierarchy ever said it quite like that, but there was a time when the church was threatened by scientific discovery. Those days are gone, thanks in part to the Protestant Reformation.

In the days of Copernicus, the church was concerned with losing its monopoly on truth. Truth was whatever the church taught. Church doctrine was the arbiter of revealed truth. In time, the authority of church doctrine was supplanted by “the proof” of scientific discovery.

Though the Protestant Reformation helped us see divine revelation could occur in math, science, poetry, music, and art, as well as the teachings of the church, there are still many who hold fast to the false belief that science and faith are in conflict. In truth, science and faith use a similar method.

Scientists observe the world. From their observations, they form hypotheses. They, then, conduct experiments to “prove” their hypotheses. Once “proven,” they hold fast to their truths, at least until more information comes to light.

Sometimes this new information supports what science “knew” to be true. Other times what science “knew” to be true is called into question or discounted completely. Scientific “proof” is not absolute, but conditional.

People of faith observe the world and God. From our observations, as well as divine revelation, we form beliefs (hypotheses). In our life experience (experiments), these beliefs are proven or disproven. Once “proven,” we hold fast to our beliefs, at least until more information comes to light.

Sometimes this new information supports our beliefs and deepens our understanding. Other times our beliefs are called into question or discounted completely. Like science, our “proof” is not absolute, but conditional. “For now, we see in a mirror, dimly…”

Gary’s Reply
Bill, you and your church are relatively progressive. However, Christianity as a whole is still living in the Dark Ages and remains threatened by scientific discovery. Fifty-six percent of evangelicals are certain that global warming is "God's will." Many more have no doubt that the Bible is an accurate historical record.

When you say, “people of faith observe the world and God,” note that they observe the world because it is available for viewing. They contemplate (no one observes) a god only by means of faith in something, without substance. Doesn't it seem odd to you that everything else you have mentioned including math, science, poetry, etc. is tangible?

You and I both know that magic is an illusion and that Aesop wrote fables. Yet for some reason, and I would suggest it is fear of divine retribution, you are willing to dismiss every rule of evidence in favor of a belief system based upon nothing more than tradition. That simply does not work for me or the fastest growing belief system in America: the “nones.”

Bill’s Reply
Well, it’s good to see Kelly Anne doesn’t have a monopoly on “alternative facts!” The Emperor Constantine died in 337. The first Council to accept the Roman Canon was 393. The Book of Revelation didn’t make the cut in the Orthodox Church until the fifth century. So when did Constantine “completely re-write” the New Testament? He didn’t. Constantine was emperor during the Council of Nicaea in 325. The Council of Nicaea focused on the humanity/divinity of Jesus, not canonizing Scripture. Gary may be thinking of Marcion, who tried to edit out the Bible’s Jewish heritage. Or maybe “The Da Vinci Code” is his source. Either way, Gary confuses the matter with his “alternative facts.”

Here is the bottom line. Gary doesn’t believe in God. I do. I have no proof for my beliefs, nor do I need any. Neither do I need to convert Gary. He has a right to his beliefs, “alternative facts” and all. But Gary has no more evidence for his beliefs, than I have for mine. We are people of faith.

Agree Statement
Bill and Gary agree that evidence for the existence of God is based on faith. While discussions on the existence of God are helpful for deepening our understanding, their purpose is best served in finding common ground to further the common good.